25 Dec 2017
[Opponent:- Awareness is God. God became every soul due to His ignorance like a person entering the dream due to his ignorance. When the person in dream awakens, he becomes original awaken person. Similarly, this soul on leaving ignorance awakens and becomes original God. The conversion of soul into unimaginable awareness by merge with Eshwara leads to impossibility.
Theorist:- We must always remember that all the points mentioned regarding a soul are only the points of similarity with God. In simile, points of difference also exist based on which you must differentiate soul from God. God will never get real ignorance so that He is captured by dream like world. This may happen in the case of soul, which is not omnipotent. God never gets real sleep (ignorance) by which God is controlled. There can be certain similarities like:- 1) Just like dream and dreaming-person caught in the dream, world and ordinary soul exist because the person caught by the dream is not real person controlling his dream like imaginary world, but, a product and part of the dream, which proceeds by itself independently without any external control. (Person creating the imaginary world can’t be the person caught in the dream. Dream can’t be created by any person. When the person sleeps, the awareness disappears for some time as deep sleep. Then, the state of dream starts when the awareness is regenerated. In this state of regenerated awareness, the ‘I’ linked with the body also remains in inert state along with the thoughts of external world and this region in which the ‘I’ linked with the body and thoughts of awaken state, called as awaken domain, is inert or inactive since the regenerated awareness does not touch this domain. The regenerated awareness touches only sub-conscious state containing strong thoughts of previous births along with some strong thoughts of the present birth also. In the dream state, a duplicate person or imaginary person is created by the sub-conscious state, who represents the original person present in the awaken state. Hence, the person caught in the dream is only a thought of sub-conscious state and the ‘I’ linked with him is not the ‘I’ present in the inactive awaken domain. Hence, the original person of awaken domain is totally different from the duplicate person created by sub-conscious state in the dream.) Similarly, soul is a product of the five elements and a part of the world, which controls the soul due to its major quantity. 2) You can compare God as creator, ruler and destroyer of the world without any ignorance like the real person creating, controlling and destroying his imaginary world in awaken state. In the simile, it happens so, that the real person gets ignorance due to sleep and is re-produced by the dream as its product and is fully controlled by the dream. Based on this point in dream, you should not say that God also became soul through ignorance and is captured by the world. 3) When you compare face to moon based on pleasantness, you shall not extend the comparison into the whole story of moon and say that the face also decreases gradually and disappears on one day! 4) People have gone one step ahead from this and started telling that the moon is actually the face, which is like telling the soul as God!! 5) Actually, God is unimaginable and generation of imaginable space from Him is unimaginable. When the soul generates space in dream, a part of the soul or nervous energy is actually converted in to space and the same nervous energy is converted in to further dream. In the case of God, God remains as He is after the creation also without any reduction. It is unscientific if you think that the soul is also unchanged after creating imaginary world or dream!
The conversion of unimaginable awareness of unimaginable God into imaginable awareness of Hiranyagarbha to convert him into Eshwara immediately is told by the Veda. As soon as space or subtle energy is created, Hiranyagarbha is created with that subtle energy (Hiranyagarbha is told as the product of one element only ‘Bhutasyajaatah’ in the Veda) in which nervous energy exists without materialized nervous system (functioning of nervous energy without materialized nervous system is a super-technology created by unimaginable God). Immediately, unimaginable God merged with Hiranyagarbha by which Hiranyagarbha spontaneously became Eshwara. When Eshwara merged with a devoted human being selected by Eshwara, such specific human being becomes human incarnation. We have the following types of awareness:- a) Unimaginable awareness of unimaginable God, b) Imaginable awareness of Hiranyagarbha (nervous energy only exists in this energetic body and materialized nervous system is absent, which is substituted by a super-technology channelizing the nervous energy due to will of unimaginable God), c) Imaginable awareness of Hiranyagarbha becoming unimaginable awareness on the merge of unimaginable God with Hiranyagarbha, d) Imaginable awareness of ordinary soul (nervous energy in materialized nervous system and brain in the materialized body) and e) Imaginable awareness of a selected soul with a materialized body becoming unimaginable on the merge of Eshwara with the selected human being. This is the theory of the theorist presented so far.]
[Opponent:- With the background of the knowledge of these five types of awareness as explained by you in the above sutra, c and e involve conversion of unimaginable awareness into imaginable awareness. Conversion of unimaginable into imaginable or vice-versa is impossible since unimaginable God alone can have knowledge of Himself, which is beyond space (Brahmavit Brahmaiva— Veda). If this unimaginable God is converted into imaginable item, such imaginable item being controlled by space can’t have the knowledge of unimaginable God, who is beyond space. Then, you must agree that the imaginable item (converted unimaginable God) must not have self-knowledge and must have self-ignorance only. If the ignorance is true, the imaginable item resulting from conversion of unimaginable God can’t be unimaginable any more. Hence, this conversion has self-contradiction.
You say that unimaginable awareness merges with imaginable awareness so that imaginable awareness remains as imaginable and at the same time attains unimaginable nature. We can understand unimaginable item having unimaginable nature and imaginable item having imaginable nature. But, we are unable to understand how the unimaginable item becomes imaginable, which naturally means that the imaginable item has become unimaginable!
Theorist:- The self-contradiction is not permitted since already we have stated that the conversion of unimaginable item in to imaginable item or vice-versa is unimaginable process done by unimaginable God. Self-contradiction can be raised by you, only when there is conversion between two imaginable items as found in the world. Based on the logic of conversions between imaginable items, you can’t bring such self-contradiction (as found in imaginable items only) in to this unimaginable conversion.
However, we give the logical reasons behind such unimaginable conversion to understand that such unimaginable conversion is justified. When cold iron rod becomes red hot by the merge of fire in heating, we can say that the cold iron rod has attained the total nature of fire, which is red hot. Neither iron rod became the fire nor did the fire become iron rod since only the entire nature of fire appeared in red hot iron rod. We can say that the iron rod became the fire (or vice versa) since all practical purposes like heating or burning something can be done by the red hot iron rod as done by fire. The fire retains its original form and iron rod retains its original form. This difference is only theoretical, but, for all practical purposes there is no difference between fire and red hot iron rod. Similarly, when unimaginable God became imaginable form in incarnation, there is no difference in all the practical purposes like miraculous powers and preaching spiritual knowledge to His devotees etc. The only difference is that the unimaginable God is not having self-ignorance whereas the unimaginable God turned to imaginable form is having self-imposed self-ignorance. This difference is due to the request of devotees only and not due to inevitable imposed self-ignorance by some external agency.
Opponent:- This means that the imaginable form told to be converted in to unimaginable God is not aware of itself (unimaginable God) due to self-imposed self-ignorance. This results to say that imaginable form remains as imaginable having self-awareness as imaginable item only. In such case, how the imaginable form becomes unimaginable? How are you transferring the cause of this ignorance to devotees?
Theorist:- 1) We are not saying that iron rod becomes fire (or vice- versa). We are only saying that iron rod remains as iron rod, but, exhibits all the nature of the fire even though iron rod is not transferred into fire theoretically. If the imaginable form becomes unimaginable God, the imaginable form disappears since it is transformed into a state having no spatial dimensions and for imaginable soul this is not possible (which is to remain as imaginable and attain status of unimaginable God) due to lack of omnipotence. But, when the unimaginable God becomes imaginable form, God leaves the unimaginable status, which is beyond the dimensional space to become imaginable and visible form due to His omnipotence. Since only unimaginable God can have the knowledge (of lack of spatial dimensions) of Himself in His original absolute plane, He has to descend down from such status to the lower status of imaginable form by willingly forgetting such self-knowledge. This obstruction is removed due to omnipotence of unimaginable God being converted into imaginable form. The imaginable form can’t be beyond space and hence, the self-knowledge of such imaginable form is also bounded by the space and can’t be beyond the space. 2) When the devotees are requesting the unimaginable God to become imaginable and visible, their request in other words is that the unimaginable God should descend down to the status of imaginable form by losing the self-knowledge of the status of God beyond space. The request of the devotees itself means that the unimaginable God shall become imaginable form by forgetting self-knowledge. As long as self-knowledge exists, only absolute plane continues in which space doesn’t exist and this is the view of the soul, but not the view of God in which no rule can bind Him. As soon as self-knowledge is lost, the unimaginable God enters the lower relative plane in which the unimaginable God retains no more knowledge of His unimaginable nature and becomes imaginable only, retaining knowledge of His imaginable nature (view of the soul), even though His unimaginable nature continues in the imaginable domain also due to His omnipotence (view of God). 3) If the imaginable form of God in relative plane preaches about Himself, He never preaches about the nature of unimaginable God as present in absolute plane, which is beyond the relative plane (in relative plane He exists as mediated God only). The receiver (soul) can’t enter the absolute plane in which unimaginable God can preach him about His unimaginable nature, because soul disappears in absolute plane. You can’t control the behaviour of God, which follows justified logic (which is that unimaginable God can alone have the self-knowledge (of unimaginable God) and imaginable item has its own self-knowledge (of imaginable soul)). The unimaginable God can come down to the imaginable domain without any disturbance in His unimaginable nature and self-knowledge due to omnipotence. The self-imposed ignorance of unimaginable God is only to facilitate the understanding view of imaginable soul. The imaginable soul can never ascend in to unimaginable domain due to lack of its omnipotence. Hence, it will be more precise to say that unimaginable God is converted in to imaginable form and not to say the vice versa (even though the vice versa can be told from the point of the aspect after conversion).
Opponent:- Following the same logic of conversion of unimaginable God in to imaginable form (incarnation) through self-ignorance, why not we say that the same unimaginable God is converted in to imaginable world (along souls) through the same ignorance. Hence, we can say that the soul is the result of conversion of unimaginable God into imaginable soul. The same soul by self-realization is converted back into unimaginable God. The soul or God is awareness and hence this equilibrium of inter-conversion by self-ignorance and self-realization is justified. Veda also says that soul or awareness is called as God in four statements (Mahaavaakyas). Veda also says that this whole world is God since God became world by ignorance (sarvam khlvidam Brahma).
Theorist:- i) God became imaginable form (devoted human being) in human incarnation. Here, the human being (bounded by space) exists even before becoming human incarnation. Other devotees requested God (beyond space) to become imaginable human form (defined by space). For such conversion, imposition of self-ignorance by God is essential (as per the understanding limits of view of soul) since imaginable form can’t have such self-knowledge, which is beyond space. But, when God created the first item, space, the above explained situation can’t exist so that God can become space by imposing self-ignorance (since space is inert having no awareness). 2) No devotee prays God to become the entire world and all souls. By such prayer, the praying soul also becomes God! 3) If God becomes world, the miraculous powers of God must be exhibited everywhere in the world including all souls (even though God’s will doesn’t exist), which is against the experience. On the other hand, only a specific devoted human being becomes human incarnation exhibiting miraculous powers (by the will of God). 4) It is told in the Veda that God enters the creation (Tadevaanupraavishat). If God has already become the world, there is no necessity of God to enter again the world. When God enters the world, it should be different from God to justify the entrance. If God has become the entire world, you can’t say that God entered the world. If the person entering house has already become the house, we can’t say that the person is entering the house! Then, the Veda should have said that God became world (Tadevaabhavat). 5) Even the specific soul selected by God to become incarnation is not God before the entry of God. In such case, how can you say that every soul is already God? 6) If God is the entire world and every soul, there is nothing to be left (salvation) and nothing to be attained by any soul (Saayujya) and in such case there is no need of spiritual knowledge or spiritual effort. 7) If God is everything and everybody, there is no discrimination of good and bad in the world. If every soul is God, why the hell is created? Is it for punishing the God? 8) Hence, something different from God is created by God through His unimaginable power for entertainment (sa dvitiyamaicchat). If nothing other than Him is created, then there is no entertainment. Hence, in view of all these reasons, God created something different from Him for entertainment, which includes all souls. 9) He entered the creation by merging with a specific devoted soul to become human incarnation (Maanushim tanum... Gita) by imposing self-ignorance on Him (in the view of the soul) for the sake of His devotees praying to see Him and talk with Him personally. Imposition of self-ignorance to become imaginable form is according to the norms of worldly logic of soul, which don’t not bind God in any way due to His omnipotence. The ignorance is imposed by God only to respect the logical set-up convenient to the view of souls that facilitates the unimaginable nature of God to be unimaginable to the understanding capacity of soul controlled by space as per the norms of relative plane. Such ignorance is not real and God is only acting as influenced by real ignorance so that the soul can distinguish unimaginable and imaginable through the concept of space without disturbing the norms of relative plane.
Opponent:- In the human incarnation, when unimaginable awareness is really converted into imaginable awareness, the unimaginable nature, which is beyond space is continuing along the imaginable nature of imaginable awareness after the merge with God. Practically, God is beyond space in incarnation also, but, theoretically He is with ignorance of self-knowledge (in view of souls). The imaginable awareness in the incarnation proves itself to be unimaginable awareness through all practical aspects like miracles. For example, Krishna shows infinite space in His small mouth exhibiting that He is beyond space. This means that Krishna (imaginable) proves Himself to be beyond space, but, He is appearing as ignorant that He is beyond space! The king is behaving as king in all practical issues, but, you say that he forgot himself to be the king!
Theorist:- The subject pointed out by you in this concept is perfectly true and hence, your objection itself contains the answer. This means that God (unimaginable awareness) became Krishna (imaginable awareness) and this conversion is practically proved by His miracles, which establish clearly that He is beyond space. The unimaginable awareness is imposing self-ignorance on it, which means that it is not really ignorant of its unimaginable self. If it expresses that it is aware of its unimaginable nature, you will immediately ask it to explain the unimaginable nature to you and you are controlled by space since you are not converted into unimaginable God. Such explanation is impossible in the sense that you being controlled by space can never understand it. The inability lies with you and you will blame the unimaginable awareness converted in to Krishna as unable to explain His original nature to you resulting in saying that Krishna is not omnipotent! In order not to blame His devotee (yourself), He imposed apparently self-ignorance on Himself to take the blame on Himself for protecting His devotee from such blame! Hence, the conclusion is that unimaginable awareness becomes imaginable awareness while maintaining perfectly its unimaginable nature (unimaginable God) through total monism and this is possible for the omnipotence of unimaginable God. In conclusion, this means that unimaginable God (converted into imaginable form) shows His imposed ignorance as the cause for not explaining about unimaginable God to you (standing in the relative plane) and covers your inability in understanding the unimaginable God. Except this one issue, the unimaginable God converted into imaginable form (through total merge) stands with full awareness about Himself (unimaginable God). Hence, you must know that the unimaginable God (standing as unimaginable God or standing as imaginable form) never gets real self-ignorance.
The unimaginable awareness does not require a container, itself being the ultimate container of the entire world. Even for the imaginable awareness attaining unimaginable nature in the case of Eshwara, no container is needed (due to unimaginable nature) and hence, Shankara did not speak about the container at all anywhere. Only the imaginable awareness or a soul needs a container (energetic or materialized). For more clarification to human beings, Ramanuja and Madhva took a container for unimaginable God, which is energetic body of Eshwara called as Naaraayana. Just like the imaginable awareness (soul) became unimaginable, the imaginable container (energetic body) also becomes unimaginable (Antarbahishcha… Veda). Even the materialized body of Krishna became unimaginable to lift the hill! God exists as the base (Aadhaara) for the soul (Aadheya) in an ordinary human being and this God is taken as soul (Purusha) of the human being by Shankara, who treated the relative awareness (so called soul) as a part (chetanaa) of the body (Kshetra or prakruti) as permitted by the Gita. Ramanuja took the so called soul as the soul (Purusha) and the base soul (Antaraatmaa or Purushottama) as God. Hence, there is no difference between these two preachers. When God enters and merges with a specific human being to become incarnation, the base soul (God) enters and occupies the so called soul (of Shankara) along with its body or only occupy the so called soul only as per the requirement. It is not a rule that both soul and body should become God in all the times. If God merges with so called soul only and not the body, the finger of Krishna is cut by sugar cane while eating it. If God merges with the body also, the same finger of Krishna could lift the huge hill. It depends on the will of God as per the requirement of context. The finger of even adult Krishna was cut by sugar cane since Draupadi is to be tested. The finger of tender boy Krishna could lift hill to save devotees from rain for seven days.
The unimaginable awareness and imaginable awareness totally differ in all the three stages of knowledge (knowledge of knower, knowledge of the process of knowing and knowledge of the known object). Knower is unimaginable in God and in human being, it is imaginable awareness in brain. The process of knowing is unimaginable in God whereas it is imaginable in human being due to imaginable neurons conducting information in nerves. The knowledge of known object is unimaginable in God (since it is the knowledge of all details of the entire world) whereas in human being it is very limited. If you argue that God and soul are one and the same while seeing a pot, it is also not true because the soul sees only the pot whereas God sees all the internal structure of the material of the pot without a microscope. If you argue that leaving the object, if we confine to just the superficial process i.e., simply knowing, such similarity is useless since it is connected to the process of knowing only by which the nature of the knower is not at all understood. However, Shankara took this common point to say that God is awareness and not inert. This point is also used to say that God always merges with items having awareness and not with items, which are inert, while becoming incarnations. The advantageous point in connecting unimaginable awareness to imaginable awareness through simple process of ‘knowing’ is that the unimaginable God can be linked to relative awareness so that God mediated by such simple aspect of relative awareness is easily grasped by everybody instead of saying God as unimaginable God without giving any link to the relative plane. All the three divine preachers are united in this basic point to call unimaginable God as unimaginable awareness.
[Opponent:- How can you correlate the four great Vedic statements, which clearly speak that God is awareness and hence God is soul?
Theorist:- 1) If every soul is God, God will never have ignorance either about self or other object (world). In such case, how other Vedic statements say that God is not known to even the intelligence (highest faculty of awareness) and its imagination (Na medhayaa, Atartkyah etc.)? Even the Gita says that no soul knows God (Maamtuveda na). This means that as per your statement, God is not having knowledge of self! 2) The meanings of these various contradicting Vedic statements can be correlated in the following way:- a) ‘All this world is God’ . This means that entire world is under control of the God since we mention the name of the owner to indicate His property (Tadadhina prathamaa). The same can apply to ‘the special knowledge is God’. b) ‘I am God’, ‘you are God’ and ‘he is God’, which indicate that all of us (souls) are under the control of God. This interpretation is given by Ramanuja, which is excellent. These statements can be also interpreted as the aspiration to become God (incarnation) in very short near future, for which present tense can be used (Atyantasannihitabhavishyati lat).
By this, the statements (interpreted in wrong sense) will not contradict other statements in the Veda through this proper interpretation.]
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